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Podcast: If You Don't Catechize Your Kids, the World Will (Kevin DeYoung)

This article is part of the The Crossway Podcast series.

The World's Catechesis

In today's episode, Kevin DeYoung talks about the catechetical battle that we’re all engaged in—whether we want to be or not—and how Christians (parents and non-parents alike) can help children to trust Jesus, embrace the Bible, and love others—even those with whom we disagree.

The Biggest Story Bible Storybook

Kevin DeYoung

This beautifully illustrated book by Kevin DeYoung combines 104 easy-to-read stories from Scripture with artwork by Don Clark, helping children ages 6–12 learn the unified story of the Bible.

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Topics Addressed in This Interview:

01:36 - The DeYoung Family

Matt Tully
Kevin, thank you so much for joining me today on The Crossway Podcast.

Kevin DeYoung
It’s great to be here.

Matt Tully
I’m sure some of our listeners know a little bit about you and your family, but for those who don’t, tell us a little bit about your family.

Kevin DeYoung
I come from a family of four children—I’m one of four. I have two parents that love the Lord, love each other, and love us. I have been married to Trisha for twenty years. We just had our twentieth anniversary.

Matt Tully
Congratulations!

Kevin DeYoung
Yes, thank you! We are looking forward to getting away soon for a little delayed anniversary trip. I would say honeymoons are wasted on the childless. You need it when you have kids, and we have a lot of kids, by God’s grace. I’ve been married twenty years and we have nine kids. Our oldest is eighteen all the way down to a one year old. So, about every two years—we have five boys and four girls.

Matt Tully
That’s amazing. I’m sure some people are wondering: Why so many kids? That’s a lot of kids. Was that intentional? Was that always the plan?

Kevin DeYoung
What were we thinking? My wife also was one of four, and we both wanted to have a bigger family. It doesn’t always work that you can have kids or a lot of kids, but I guess it’s worked for us, without much trying, to have kids. I think we got to four and we definitely wanted four, then we had five, and then maybe after five we started saying I think the next one is probably the last one. But then, obviously, we didn’t do anything for it to not be the last one. Each time we felt completely overwhelmed and thought What are we doing? But then there was part of both of us that embraced it. For my wife it was always hard to put away all the baby clothes, although several times she gave all of the baby clothes to her friends. Then, it seemed like every twelve to fifteen months she would be pregnant again. Now we have nine, and now I feel like an old man and we’re both in our forties, so all good things have to come to an end at some point.

Matt Tully
Not many parents have the experience of having children at so many different ages. We think of those baby years and then you move into the school-age years, then high school years, but you’ve got all of the above. Do you feel like it’s changed how you view those early years since you have a kid going off to college soon?

Kevin DeYoung
Yes, our oldest is graduating high school and going off to college. It’s amazing how long all of that lasts when you just keep having kids.

Matt Tully
And there’s never been a time when you haven’t had diapers in the house?

Kevin DeYoung
No. My wife is amazing. She’s been pregnant, nursing, or changing diapers for almost twenty years of her life. Now that we have nine kids, sometimes I’ll just take four of them some place and it feels like This is easy! I could take four kids to the moon! I always tell people the hardest adjustment is zero to one. The Lord gives you grace with each one that comes along. But yes, it’s sometimes a little embarrassing when you’re at your kid’s high school stuff and then mom’s nursing in the corner or something. We’re young parents for a high school senior, but someday we’re going to be old parents when the one year old grows up. But I think for the most part our kids like it and feel like it’s a special thing about their family. Even my oldest son has always been very sweet to the younger ones and likes to be a good big brother to them.

05:37 - Normalizing Sin

Matt Tully
Yeah, that’s awesome to see that. All parents listening right now know that the community that we live in and the broader culture that surrounds us can have a very powerful shaping effect on our kids. We see that day to day. In an article that you wrote last year for TGC, you received a lot of attention (and even some controversy I believe) when you spoke about this catechesis that the world is constantly pressing upon us and especially our children. Why would you use that word catechesis in particular?

Kevin DeYoung
I’ve written about that a couple of places. I think that article was maybe coming on the heels of the Olympics, and my family loves to watch the Olympics, and I was just noticing how, even different from the last summer Olympics, it seemed like every commercial had a rainbow flag or had two guys holding hands or had someone who looks like a woman but has a beard. All of the sexuality and gender stuff was just there in your face like this has just been around forever and is so wonderful. I was reflecting: our world is catechizing us. No matter how many limits you put on screen time or how much you try not to do all the media stuff, if your kids are living in this world I can pretty much guarantee that the world is catechizing them. Not in a formal way that the world is giving a question and answer format where you memorize it—that would actually be easier. You could say No, don’t read the world’s catechism.

Matt Tully
Stop memorizing that.

Kevin DeYoung
That’s right. Don’t memorize it! That’s wrong! But, it does it through commercials, music, memes, YouTube clips—all of those things. I quote all the time David Wells when he said “Worldliness is whatever makes sin look normal and righteousness look strange.” That’s what our world does. It doesn’t give us a discursive argument that says Here’s why you should accept this sin. What it does is it normalizes it. That’s a type of catechesis, which is just an old word to mean training or discipleship or instruction. The question is not whether or not our children are being catechized, it’s whether we are going to catechize them or just let the world do it, because the world is. Even if you homeschool your kids or send them to a Christian school, they’re getting that. So, we need to be intentional about catechizing them with what is truly good, truly beautiful, and truly life-changing and life-saving and God-glorifying.

Matt Tully
As you said, the informality of that catechesis—oftentimes, the lack of explicit didactic teaching—can make it sort of fly under the radar. We don’t think of it as much of a threat as explicit teaching. In one particularly memorable line from that article you write, “Make no mistake: no matter how good your church, no matter how strong your family, no matter how gospel-centered your Christian school or homeschool, if your children and grandchildren are even remotely engaged with contemporary culture (and they are), they are being taught by a thousand memes and messages every week to pay homage to the rainbow flag.” How would you respond to the person who hears that, hears what you just said, and responds Kevin, you’re overreacting. Or, worse, you’re maybe even engaging in some kind of pious fear-mongering

Kevin DeYoung
Culture warrior.

Matt Tully
culture warrior. You’re setting us up to have some political agenda. What would you say to the person who responds that way?

Kevin DeYoung
Culture war has become a very negative term, and that’s not the brand I’m going for—culture warrior. But here’s the reality: sometimes you don’t get to choose the wars that you’re in. The alternative to saying I’m not in a culture war, is that doesn’t mean the other side has just laid down their weapons. Almost everything over the past fifty years in this country that is considered a “culture war issue” has been because secularizing forces are pushing something. They’re pushing a libertine view of sex, they’re pushing a different view of gender, a different view of marriage. These things are coming whether we want them or not. I take seriously the charge of Isn’t this fear mongering? The Bible talks about different kinds of fear. It’s easy to say We live by faith not by fear, and that’s true, but there are certain things that we need to be aware of and what the world is teaching and what the world is promoting. It’s not that I want my kids to go out into the world and feel like it is such a scary place and everyone is going to hate me as a Christian. Here’s how I put it, and I say this all the time in our church: you need to decide right now that it’s okay to be strange. Sure, there are some places in this country that are going to be friendlier to Christian values and authentic Christian faith. Here in Charlotte, all things considered, it’s friendlier than a lot of places, though Charlotte is quickly changing. If they’re not prepared for that, I don’t want them to go out and be afraid everywhere they turn, but they do need to have their eyes wide open. They need to because all of us instinctively want to fit it. We want people to like us. If we just go out into the world and think You know what? If I just keep my head down and I’m a nice enough Christian, everything will be fine. That’s not the world we live in anymore.

Matt Tully
You think that’s the core issue behind that kind of a critique for most people, that there’s a fear of being viewed as strange and maybe being critiqued for that?

Kevin DeYoung
I think that’s often the case. I don’t want to say what people’s motives are in saying that. Certainly, it’s true that there is a kind of non-stop, cry wolf, alarmist, you use it to fund raise for your institutions or your political party, everything is bad, everyone is out to get you—that’s not helpful and that’s not accurate either. And yet, if we don’t realize the instinct we all have that we’re all going to have some group that we want to think well of us. It may be a group of conservative people or liberal people, but there’s some group. What we need to understand, at least, is the mainstream culture out there is pushing in one direction. You may say Kevin, you don’t know my church. It’s extreme right wing. I don’t disagree. There are lots of other ways to have problems. I’m talking about if you are living in the mainstream culture—if you watch ESPN, if you watch sports on TV, if you watch Avenger movies, if you watch the Olympics, all of that stuff—you’re going to be pushed in one direction. That culture is not going to push you to greater clarity or biblical fidelity, and especially on issues related to sex and gender.

Matt Tully
So, in offering this warning and caution to parents, you’re not saying there aren’t other dangers that face Christians and their children.

Kevin DeYoung
Of course.

13:12 - Am I Just Creating a Christian Bubble?

Matt Tully
What’s the line between seeking to protect our kids from this worldly catechesis and naively trying to shelter them in some kind of Christian bubble?

Kevin DeYoung
The bubble. I’ve always heard “the bubble.” I grew up mostly in Grand Rapids and everyone would say we lived in a bubble. One time I was in New York City and I heard some people there say Oh, we live in such a bubble. What? You live in New York City! Oh! Our neighborhood is such a bubble! So, I don’t know.

Matt Tully
These were Christians talking?

Kevin DeYoung
I think these were non-Christians.

Matt Tully
Oh, okay. You’ve seen this idea of a bubble.

Kevin DeYoung
Yeah. We need to get out of our little whatever block radius. So, anybody can inhabit a bubble. The issue is to understand that children have a right to be children. Was it Neil Postman who did the book years ago, The Disappearance of Childhood? On the one hand, my eight year old should be able to be an eight year old. My eight year old doesn’t have to know what problems are for eighteen year olds or twenty-eight year olds. That’s a good kind of bubble. I want my kids, especially when they’re younger, to feel like the world—and this is a gift we can give as parents who love each other and love the Lord—I want them to have what I had, which is an instinctive sense of Ah, the world is relatively safe because my parents love me. It makes sense. All sorts of people who don’t have that—and God can redeem it—they don’t long for their kids to have utter chaos and craziness and dysfunction. They want their kids to feel like This is a world that makes sense. People at church love me, people at school, etc. So, yes and amen! I want my kids to have that kind of bubble that allows them to live a childhood. As they get older—my eighteen year old is graduating from high school and going off to college—by the time you’re a teenager, I want, within the safe space of church and family, I want the very best of secular ideologies to come to them. I don’t want to shelter them from those things. Here is the hard thing people are going to say about Christianity: you’re going to meet LGBT folks in college, especially if you go to any secular college, and they’re nice people! You’re going to like them and you’re going to hang out with them.

Matt Tully
That’s one of the big critiques that you hear. You hear stories of Christians who grew up in a “sheltered home” where they had all the right answers, they were protected from all these bad influences. And then they get out to the “real world” and it felt like they had no idea that these things existed. They had no idea that there were normal people living lives that looked very different than theirs but they still felt like normal, kind, generous people. How do you walk that line in talking with your teenagers?

Kevin DeYoung
It starts by being explicit about those things. Here’s what you’re going to find: the ideal—and we never have the ideal—is that they’ve already heard some of the hardest things they could hear about their faith, about their tradition. They’ve already encountered that, so they don’t hear it and think Oh, wow! This is really scary. I didn’t know that people doubted the Bible, there are different translations, there are manuscripts. But today, it’s not even those issues as much as it is the ethics of Christianity. It used to be that people said Well, Christians are dumb. They don’t believe in science. Now, it’s more Christians are bad. They’re hateful. They’re bigots. They don’t love other people. I think churches and families do a fairly good job of giving the right conclusions. What I think we do a poor job is giving the reasons for those conclusions. If my kids graduate from Christian school, church, and family and go off and they’ve been taught that marriage is between a man and a woman, they have the right conclusion to that, but they don’t have some of the super structure that leads to that conclusion. They haven’t been taught what are the objections to that, what are the sort of people you’re going to meet who seem to belie that conclusion. Then they’re going to go out and they’ll hold to some biblical truth for a time, but it will sit very uneasy with everything else they inhabit in their worldview and believe about the world and feel about the world. Eventually, one biblical conclusion against a thousand cultural assumptions, those cultural assumptions are going to win out.

18:09 - Going Deeper than ‘Because the Bible Says So’

Matt Tully
Does it ever seem like sometimes the answer that we give for say, the marriage issue—Because the Bible says so, and we trust the Bible as God’s word, and that kind of settles it—do you think there is an important role of actually going a step further than that and talking about the why of some of these biblical commands and teachings? It’s not merely because the Bible says so. There are reasons for why marriage, for example, should be between a man and a woman. How do you think about that—invoking the Bible with your kids as you teach them vs. explaining the why?

Kevin DeYoung
That’s absolutely right because one of the tactics will be to say This view of biblical marriage that you call biblical is like six texts of terror that talk about homosexuality. Then, it’s a short journey to just try to relativize those each one of those texts: Maybe Paul was talking about a different kind of homosexuality. Maybe this word doesn’t mean this. Isn’t that just in Leviticus? Suddenly, because you just had a few verses, you say Wow. I don’t know if this actually makes sense anymore.

Matt Tully
Especially when there are aesthetic and ethical arguments from the other side. Sometimes it seems like Christians don’t have those arguments. All we can do is point to a Bible verse.

Kevin DeYoung
Right. I think I was talking to Carl Truman one time, who has written with Crossway so helpfully on this, and I said something about how Christians have lost the argument on gay marriage. He said they didn’t really lose the argument, because there never really was an argument, but they lost the aesthetic. They lost the mood. Maybe there was nothing that we could do about that—cultures just change—but that means we need to try and re-instill for our people. Yes, teach those texts. Teach the exegesis of that text, but we want our people to see that that’s part of a broader understanding. You see, for example, everything in the creation story has a cosmic pairing. It has night and day, sky and moon, sky and sea—there are all these cosmic parings. And then the climax is male and female. This is not an arbitrary thing for any two sort of human beings. Then, why does the Bible end with marriage in Revelation 19? Because the coming together of heaven and earth is depicted in the coming together of these two differentiated beings called male and female. So, that’s just one argument. We’re not dealing with four or five texts. We’re feeling with the whole warp and woof of Scripture of how the Bible understands the complementarity of man and woman. I think there are some really good natural law arguments that we could use that don’t replace the Bible, obviously, but help to support why this makes sense. If you don’t have man and woman, why do you have monogamy? Monogamy only works in the moral logic that says one man and one woman because they come together with the biological purpose, in part, of hopefully producing children. So, there are lots of other arguments that we need to give. And we need to help deconstruct. The world is always deconstructing Christianity; we need to deconstruct some of the slogans. I did a talk in our Christian school’s chapel here not too long ago on the slogan “Love is love.” Even at our conservative Christian school, we’re kidding ourselves if we don’t think there are a lot of people who are really confused. They’ll hear one thing, and then you look on their Instagram page, and they’re liking all of the rainbow stuff that everybody else is. So, love is love. I just tried to unpack that. What does our world mean by that? What’s true about that? What’s horribly misleading?

22:08 - Encouraging Honest Questions from Our Kids

Matt Tully
I want to return to that issue of deconstruction in a little bit. How do we encourage our kids’ honest questions? As you said, as they get older we want to encourage those questions. We want to expose them to the best arguments from other perspectives, but do that without valorizing doubt, or holding up doubt as this ethical, moral good. It seems like that is often the way it is spoken about today.

Kevin DeYoung
That’s really good because Jude says have mercy on those who doubt. He says, Be gracious to those people. Don’t kick them out of the church. But the fact that he says have mercy on those who doubt—it doesn’t say, Make them your teachers. Sometimes people say the greatest heights of faith are when you doubt everything. No, actually, when you get to heaven, you’re not doubting. The goal is not to have these doubts. And yet, we realize so many Christians have had dark nights of the soul and doubt things. So, we want our kids to feel like the best place I’m going to go—because you know they have questions—are my parents. My kids are one to eighteen, so the Lord is going to humble me.

Matt Tully
You’ve got lots of questions coming at you.

Kevin DeYoung
And there are lots of things I still need to learn as a parent, and I don’t take credit for anything. Who knows what the next eighteen years will bring. But I do hope that my kids feel like, I can talk to my friends about stuff, but I’m going to trust mom and dad more than I trust a Google search. That comes, I think, with not just a conversation here or there, but with an atmosphere of love, trust, respect, and fun in the household. I was a kid who had questions, and yet somehow I always felt like I wanted to please my parents. What my parents thought of me was important. That meant that when I had influences pushing me one way, there was always part of me that said, Well, I know my mom and dad love me. What they think matters to me. It wasn’t any one thing they did. We weren’t memorizing the catechism every night, but it was the cumulative effect of their love for one another, their love for us, and just the ordinary stuff of life—going to church and learning about the Bible.

Matt Tully
What has intentional discipleship, formation—pick the word—what has that looked like in your family?

Kevin DeYoung
I tell people sometimes that if you want a great example, you should go to my friend and colleague Jason Helopoulos. He’s even done some books for Crossway. He nails it with the family worship. I’ve learned from him. If you went to our house, you would see a lot of chaos, a lot of meals where one or more of us are standing up, a lot of meals in shifts—

Matt Tully
Do you even do a whole family meal together? How does that work?

Kevin DeYoung
Sometimes.

Matt Tully
How big is your table?

Kevin DeYoung
We have a big circle table that can just about squeeze eleven of us in. My wife’s mom lives with us as well, so sometimes there are twelve of us there. It’s rare that all of us are there. I promise you—this is not false humility—you would not see something extraordinary. It’s chaos, it’s loud, it’s talking over each other. Sometimes, when we’re all there, we share about our day, we encourage one another, we pray, we read things. We’ve done all sorts of things: read a book, read Table Talk from Ligonier, read a chapter of the Bible. But I would be lying if I said we did it every night. We don’t. Or, if I said we were doing it more often than we’re not. It’s just a struggle for us to do that. So, there’s the formal piece where we pray with our kids every night and put them all to bed. There’s that, there’s conversations in cars, there’s the formal family worship. I hope I’m not just giving myself an excuse, but I think there’s all of the intangibles of what are my kids catching? You know the old adage: it’s more caught than it is taught. As your kids are teenagers in particular, you can’t plan for when you want to have a conversation. You may say, I’m going up now to have a really great gospel conversation. No, you’ve got to be ready because it may be the middle of the night. It may be in the middle of shooting baskets outside that they ask one of these questions. So, what you’re building is hopefully a sense of, I trust my mom and dad. I love them and I know they love me. I think what I have done poorly is some of the formal day-in and day-out. I just wish I was better at it. What I think and hope, by God’s grace, that I’ve done better is a sense that my kids love me. I think they would even say they like me most of the time. They enjoy being with the family. That gives a sense of this is a safe place. This is something that we don’t want to run from, but we hope to have in our own lives someday.

Matt Tully
I think that’s really encouraging, because I think the tendency, when this topic of family worship or discipleship comes up, is that a lot of us parents immediately feel guilty. We feel like we’re falling short dramatically. I think that’s because maybe we have examples in our life—you mentioned Jason Helopoulos—and we have in our mind this idea of a little family seminary or something where the kids are sitting quietly with their Bibles open, following along, raising their hand to answer Bible trivia questions. That’s just so often not what it looks like, but I think those informal times are so important.

Kevin DeYoung
There are times, certainly, of reading stories with our kids, and there are the formal times of doing it, but don’t neglect almost the best habit you could give your kids is that they go to church every Sunday. Don’t neglect that. Our kids should not have to ask us, Are we going to church this morning? Honestly, if your kids are getting up and asking that, you have to think, Do they not know that this happens every single Sunday? Maybe they’re asking that because there’s COVID. There are reasons to miss church, of course, but we need to give our kids—and I’m so glad my parents did. It was just automatic. For us, it was you go to church Sunday morning and you go Sunday evening. We can do great family devotions, and yet if we are implicitly teaching our kids that soccer is more important than church, or that Sunday sports come first and church fits in when it can, that’s powerful. You never lay it out as a catechism question: When do you go to church? But you’re teaching your kids those values.

30:03 - Helping Our Kids Love the Bible

Matt Tully
Obviously, Scripture is such a foundational part of the Christian life and what it means to walk by faith. We need these words from God going through our minds. Specifically, how have you sought to help your kids love the Bible and love the stories of the Bible and have them shape them in significant ways?

Kevin DeYoung
Lots of normal ways. Reading kids books about the Bible, reading the Bible at the dinner table. If you don’t know what to do, family worship and devotions can seem very complicated. There are so many good books. When in doubt, read a chapter of the Bible. That’s what my parents did, and over the course of many years we made it through the whole Bible.

Matt Tully
If there’s a parent listening right now, what book should they start with? A chapter a day—or a chapter whenever they get to it—what book?

Kevin DeYoung
We have wrestled with that—Did we already do this book? You’re not going to go wrong picking one of the Gospels. Maybe give yourself the shortest one. Go to Mark and you can feel good about yourself in a few weeks. We did it! I think there’s a tendency to say, We’re just going to start at the beginning with Genesis. Okay, that could be great. I find, at least with my kids, Genesis and Exodus—through Sunday school and other things—they feel like they’ve gotten a lot of those stories, and probably because they start at the beginning a lot of times with those stories. So, we’ve done Proverbs several times. There are lots of practical things there.

Matt Tully
Do you feel like you need to teach them? That can be another thing that people feel intimidated by: I don’t feel like I can teach something on top of this. Is it enough just to read the chapter?

Kevin DeYoung
My family growing up, as I remember it at least, it was dad reads a chapter, we tried not to do things—

Matt Tully
Fight.

Kevin DeYoung
Yeah, to fight, or try to make the other person laugh. We listened, and then somebody prayed. So, if that’s all you do, that’s great. When I read it, we have such an age range of kids that more than doing a mini lesson, I may just ask one of the older kids to give me one thing that you learned, or what’s one question you have from that. I just try to pick out one thing. But you don’t have to do that. A lot of people do, and especially dads who should be leading the way in this, get intimidated: Okay, Kevin. You’ve been to seminary, you know all of this stuff . . . .

Matt Tully
You’re a pastor!

Kevin DeYoung
Of course. Read it. Ask one of your kids to pray. Even doing that would be amazing.

32:40 - Advice for Parents

Matt Tully
Maybe as a last question, returning to that topic of deconstruction that you mentioned before. It’s one of those buzzwords that gets thrown around a lot today. People mean different things by it, so it’s a little tricky to nail down—what do we mean by that word? What advice would you offer to the parent listening right now whose child—maybe a teenage child or maybe older—is “deconstructing” his or her own faith. By that I mean seriously questioning some pretty fundamental ideas when it comes to Christianity, or maybe even on the verge of just walking away from any semblance of Bible-based Christianity. What would you say to that parent?

Kevin DeYoung
I have talked to those parents. There are a lot of things and every situation is different. Several things come to mind. One, don’t freak out. You may be freaking out inside and freak out before the Lord and offer all your prayers, but what I mean is sometimes we sense that in our kids, or we hear it, or even they come out—today, they could come out as trans, bi, or they’re just deconstructing—our kids need to hear, I still love you. They need to know you’re not leaving them. What often happens, sadly, especially with older kids who are maybe out of the house, they will make all ultimatums and will say, If you don’t affirm this about me, then you don’t love me. If you won’t let me bring my same sex partner to stay in your house with me, then you can’t have a relationship with me. It’s really heartbreaking. I would say to parents that you don’t have to abide by their new rules. You can tell them, I love you, but you don’t have to agree with what their definition of love is. Oftentimes, there is such a need for a child to have parents love them that it does feel like, If you don’t affirm this thing about me, you don’t really love me, but that’s not how the Bible explains love. Love is not unconditional affirmation. And then I would say that if you’re dealing with kids who are in the home—and I know this isn’t always easily done—don’t seed your authority. Meaning, if you’ve got a fifteen year old that says, I don’t like any of this stuff anymore, they still should go to church. They still should do the things that your family is doing. I know it’s such a fight. When they get to be eighteen or nineteen or something it would be very difficult. But insofar as they’re living under your authority, I think you graciously and tenderly say, These are still the rules. I know you say you don’t believe this anymore. The last thing I would say is just realize that rarely is it chiefly an intellectual issue. It may present itself as an intellectual issue, and there may be genuine intellectual issues, but I think our tendency, and I can feel this temptation, is to come at them with better answers—and there are better answers—but you almost have to wait until they’re ready for that. Usually it’s what their friends are doing and it’s their peer group. Sometimes parents pay attention way too late to the influences that are coming from their peer group. They just think, I’m going to give you a book. You’re going to read it and you’re going to see how Christianity is right and this deconstruction is wrong. Well, that’s fine if they’re really interested in it. You may invite them to read it, but that may come later. What they may need in the short term is the rules that come with the Christian house and the love that comes from a Christian parent.

Matt Tully
Kevin, thank you so much for talking with us today about this big, important topic of discipling our kids, forming our kids spiritually—catechizing our kids—especially in the face of an increasingly secular world. We appreciate it.

Kevin DeYoung
It’s great to be with you.


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