Podcast: What Worship in the Church Is Actually About (Ryanne Molinari)

November 10, 2025 by: Crossway

This article is part of the The Crossway Podcast series.

Why Singing in Church Matters So Much

Ryanne Molinari discusses the common challenges that worship leaders face in the church and the ways they can minister to the entire congregation. Ryanne discusses the ways music shapes us, reinforces our identity, helps us focus on God, and keeps us ground, and she connects how keeping these things in mind prevents us from performative worship and to instead serve each other and praise God.

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Spirit-Filled Singing

Spirit-Filled Singing

Ryanne J. Molinari

Drawing from Galatians 5, Spirit-Filled Singing provides a biblical framework for intentional worship, exploring how singing and the fruit of the Spirit both work to glorify God and edify his church. 

Topics Addressed in This Interview:

00:32 - The Road to Becoming a Collaborative Pianist

Matt Tully
Ryanne Molinari is a pianist, an organist, a writer, and a worship director, and she and her husband are members of Prairie Bible Church in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, where her husband also serves as lead pastor. Ryanne, thanks so much for joining me today on The Crossway Podcast.

Ryanne Molinari
Thank you so much for having me.

Matt Tully
We’re going to talk today about music and singing, especially in the context of the local church, and just why those two maybe seemingly mundane or very normal activities for us as Christians are actually so important. They’re so foundational for our lives as Christians. And I think you’re going to help us to understand that and unpack that in a little bit deeper way than we’re used to. But before we get there, I wonder if you could just share a little bit about your own story, your own background. You do music professionally, and you’ve been trained professionally. Tell us a little bit more about your musical upbringing.

Ryanne Molinari
When I was five, I started asking for piano lessons.

Matt Tully
So you asked for them?

Ryanne Molinari
I did, yeah.

Matt Tully
Your parents didn’t have to force them on you like most of us.

Ryanne Molinari
Yeah. I heard one of my friends (who was a big kid at the time) play Ode to Joy on the piano and I just thought it was the coolest thing I’d ever seen. And so I started asking for piano lessons, and then when I took piano lessons, I just never really stopped. I fixated on it; my parents would have to stop me from practicing at the end of the day. They’d have to say, "That’s enough. We need to sleep now."

Matt Tully
So many parents are feeling so jealous of your parents right now.

Ryanne Molinari
It’s not every kid’s thing. And as a piano teacher, I’ve actually counseled students and parents by saying, "Hey, I don’t think this is your kid’s passion. Find the thing that they want to do all the time and focus on that." But that was piano for me. I loved music. I loved reading. That was my other great love. And I sometimes would read while practicing piano, which was not smart. My teachers didn’t like that.

Matt Tully
How did that work?

Ryanne Molinari
I’d memorize my music and then I’d put a novel on the music stand and just play my music memorized while reading. That didn’t last long. But those were always my two great loves growing up: music and literature. And so when I was looking to go to college, by this point I’d really discovered this deep love for choral music. I’m not a great singer, but I loved playing the piano for choirs—playing that supporting role and being part of the music and helping lead the music but not really being the center of attention. So I discovered this deep passion for accompanying, and I found out that being a collaborative pianist was a really viable career option for me.

Matt Tully
I’ve seen you use that term in some of your writing—collaborative pianist or collaborative organist. You’re also an organist. We’ll get to that a little bit later. What does that actually mean?

Ryanne Molinari
It’s a more dignifying term, honestly, than accompanist. So a collaborative pianist can play multiple roles. It’s a keyboardist who accompanies the singer or the soloist or the ensemble, but they also can serve coaching roles. So I’ve worked with opera singers where I help them learn their music. I kind of coach them on the melodies and the timing. Collaborative pianists might step in and lead the rehearsal. They sort of bridge this gap between service and leadership, which I found so appealing because I’ve always loved being in some form of leadership, but I am more of an introvert. So finding a leadership role where I was in the middle was so, so nice. And I wasn’t anybody’s focus during performances, but I got to be really important behind the scenes. And I just love that so much. Knowing that was a career path that was a lot more viable than concert pianist—very few people make it to that level, and I knew I wouldn’t—but I knew I could be a good collaborative pianist. So I went to Biola University and got my piano performance degree. Before going to college, I got an organ scholarship to start learning the organ. And I just thought, Oh, this is a good way to bulk up my resume. Maybe I’ll be more attractive to the music school. And that was true. And when I got to Biola, every year I thought about quitting the organ, but every year these providential, weird things would fall into place. I’d either get a job playing the organ, or I’d get a special scholarship that I didn’t know existed for playing the organ, or a donor would donate a new organ to the school for me, because I was the only organist at first. And so God didn’t let me quit. Piano was my main focus throughout college, but organ was always there. Then, I moved to Scotland for grad school right after Biola, and I didn’t want to bring my organ shoes. You have to wear special shoes to play the organ, and I almost didn’t pack them because I just—

Matt Tully
Just because they were just one more thing?

Ryanne Molinari
It was one more thing, and I just didn’t even want the option of being forced to play the organ again. So I didn’t want to bring them. I did. I just threw them in the bag. And sure enough, within five days of arriving in Scotland, I had a job as an organ scholar at this beautiful historic church in St. Andrews. And again, I just thought, Oh, it’s a good side gig. It helps kind of cover my groceries. It was my favorite part of grad school. I loved my studies. I studied theology and the arts, and that was wonderful. But by far my favorite part of that whole experience abroad was playing the organ at this church. And so that was really where I think I woke up to what God was doing when he was just saying, You’re going to play the organ. This is a weird, unique thing. Not a lot of people your age do this. And I accepted it, and it was great.

Matt Tully
You write in the book that there was a time when you had spent years thinking that working in music for worship context was really about preparing you to be a better musician. But you say that now you see it kind of opposite, that working in music in these different professional and semi-professional ways was actually all about preparing you to be a better worshiper. And that kind of leads into the theme of this book that you’ve written with Crossway, that music is this foundational way that we are called to worship God, and it actually has this formative effect on us. But walk us through that realization that you had. As people who have grown up in the church, we all kind of intuitively understand that music’s important, music’s part of our worship, but where did things actually start to get deeper for you and your understanding?

Ryanne Molinari
It was gradual, but I think it was always there, in some sense. Music has always been so integral to my spiritual formation, but I just maybe didn’t know it until more recently. Whenever I speak at Christian schools to musicians, I tell them that if you are a Christian and you are either a high level student or professional musician, worship ministry is inevitable. Someone will find out you play the guitar or you have a degree in vocal performance, and you will end up on the worship team. That’s just the natural channel. Or you’ll get a job as a music director at a church, because musicians rarely have one job. We usually have to have five or six part-time jobs cobbled together. So, music ministry is inevitable for Christian musicians, and that was my experience. From a very young age, I was playing piano in Sunday school, playing on the worship team; and then in college was working at a church as a a pianist. And I always just thought, Oh, well yeah, I play piano. This seems like a natural place for me to serve. It makes sense. Then, when I started getting paid for it, I thought, Oh, well this is a great side gig. This really helps me cover my groceries, cover my gas, and all of those things. And then as I started looking back, I realized that in almost every stage of my life, I had treated worship ministry as tangential, but it was actually my favorite part. Like I said earlier, in grad school, I loved my studies, but looking back, the part that ministered to me the most and that I hold the most dear was rehearsing at the church, helping lead services, participating in the choir at Evensong. And so as much as I had not noticed it at the time, it served my heart in a really unique way. And then looking back, I realized so much of who I am—the best parts of me—came from those early morning band practices, those nighttime choir rehearsals, learning hymns week after week after week, and always having to stay on top of it. It did something really formative and fruitful in me that it was so much more than a side gig. It really shaped me into who I am.

Matt Tully
In what ways? What did that shaping look like for you? What do you think it was about the music and the performance of the music that had this effect on you?

Ryanne Molinari
Music is so affectional. Martin Luther calls it the "mistress and governess of the emotions." I just love that. It’s so true. What we listen to tends to either influence or image what we’re feeling. And a workout can be so much better because you have the right playlist, right? And no one would listen to a funeral dirge and try to go for a run. It wouldn’t work at all. So we choose music to influence our goals, and then music can shape how we’re feeling. I realized a while ago that I love melancholy folk music, but I also realized a while ago it was doing something deformative in me, where I was becoming too melancholic, because I was listening to that 24/7. It was shaping my heart in a way that I didn’t really want to be shaped long term.

Matt Tully
What was it about that that was so appealing to you?

Ryanne Molinari
I think I’m an autumnal person. I like the gloomy, foggy, acoustic feel of it. And the poetry of the lyrics are always so incredible in that genre, because they’re real and they’re deep and they’re not overly corny. But it was sort of like a diet of all kale. It’s eventually going to do something kind of troubling, right? It’s good in moderation. But music shapes what we want, what we think about, how we do things, and how we’re feeling. And so being constantly steeped in worship music was really a safeguard for me in a lot of ways. It kept my heart grounded and it kept my mind focused on Christ week after week, and it kept me in fellowship. I think when I was in college especially, in times of stress, my tendency is to isolate. But I couldn’t because twice a week I had to be surrounded by a choir of people singing hymns. And it was people beyond my college community. It was with older people. There were children in the choir, and so I was really part of this family that I didn’t have as a college student. So there’s this affectional power of music ministry, but also just the built-in community as you’re all working together in this common goal.

Matt Tully
It’s so profound to hear you talk about the way that music can image our affections and reflect what we’re feeling, but it can also influence our affections. And that’s something that I know many people have experienced and felt. Do you think that’s always true for Christians and all people? Does music always have that effect? And what would you say to somebody who says, I just don’t feel like that connected to music. I don’t feel that moved by music, generally? Does that mean that they just haven’t found the right music to listen to? Or do you think some people maybe just aren’t quite as attuned or influenced by music?

Ryanne Molinari
That’s interesting because my husband has said that exact thing to me. I am much more from the musical-artsy spectrum of things, and he was raised by athletes and is an athlete. And so he’d say things like, "Oh, I just don’t really listen to music. I don’t really like music." But that’s just not true. Lately, he just keeps bringing these songs to me. He’s like, "This is so deep. This is so incredible." And they’re not necessarily Christian songs. They’re just incredibly poignant and perceptive lyrics. And so I do think there’s something to be said for just finding that music that resonates with you. But I also think there’s something to be said for how some people are influenced by things and are just not aware of it. I think as a musical person, I’m constantly aware of what music is going on around me. I remember I was shopping at Old Navy, and if you can shop there and listen to the songs and make any sort of sense out of it, call me, because it makes zero sense. It feels like complete nonsense just generated to make you want to shop. But I’m constantly aware of that because that’s my training. And so I think there’s something to be said for Christians is we have a duty to pay attention to how music is shaping us and to be aware that even if we don’t think it is, it probably is in some way.

13:45 - What Does Scripture Say About Music?

Matt Tully
Speak a little bit to what Scripture then says about music and its role. We all have this lived experience of being affected by music in some way, and probably most people do feel like there are certain memories associated with songs that are very meaningful and very profound for us. But what does Scripture actually teach us about the importance of music for the Christian?

Ryanne Molinari
For the past few years, I’ve been so drawn to Ephesians 5, where it seems that singing is actually a product of the Holy Spirit. It says, "Be filled with the Spirit and sing, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs." It’s like there’s something about when we are filled with the Spirit, singing should be a natural outpouring. But it also seems to be, in those verses, that as we sing together, the Spirit’s doing something unique and filling in us.

Matt Tully
And the together part is important.

Ryanne Molinari
Yes, I think. It reminds me of the verse that says, "Where two or three are gathered, there I am among them." It’s like there’s something so unique when members of the body of Christ are together. And it doesn’t mean that if you’re alone, you aren’t worshiping or you’re not benefiting from singing. That’s not true. But there’s something particularly powerful about singing in community and encouraging one another by singing together and seeing each other and hearing each other. There’s a really beautiful fellowship there. But I also think if you look even throughout the Old Testament, the Jewish people were always a people of song and a singing people. That was integral to their identity as a people. The psalms were their songbook. It was for everyone to be singing, and it was something that just was central to every like all of life and worship. And you look even just from an anthropological standpoint, singing is just a marker of human community. It’s something really unique and distinctive about people, and particularly about multiple people altogether. It binds people together in this really powerful way, even beyond the church.

Matt Tully
As I was preparing for this interview, I did get to thinking about this dynamic, and it seems like in the modern era, this technologically advanced era that we live in today, we can, at a moment’s notice on my phone, pull up any song I want from anywhere in the world and listen to it by myself with my headphones in. That’s a very relatively modern type of experience of music. If you look back at church history, probably the only times that people would experience music, if they’re not just singing to themselves, would be hearing it in a group context, whether it was at church, probably oftentimes, or some kind of concert or performance. But it really was always in a group, and it’s only in the modern era where we can experience music in this kind of individualistic type of way.

Ryanne Molinari
Yeah, and I thought a lot about that. I don’t like wearing my headphones when I don’t have to. And I wonder if part of that instinct is I don’t like how music has become a solely individual experience. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Again, I love having Spotify. I love how that enables me to prepare for worship really well. I can listen to the new song over and over and over and get it in my ears. So there are a lot of benefits to this. But I think it goes against the nature of music itself. Music is like writing. It’s communication. It’s not intended to be solely individual. I think back to Genesis 2 with the first institution of human community, with Adam and Eve. What does Adam do? He speaks poetry over her. It may be singing, I don’t know, but there’s something in that relational nature of music. It wants to be heard. You’re singing to someone, whether that’s God or another person or both. And so when we have music just in our ears individually, I don’t think it’s wrong, but we have to remember that’s not the end of music. It’s not meant to just be for one person.

17:46 - “Singing Together Represents the Heart of Worship”

Matt Tully
Sometimes when we think about music in the context of the church, we’ll refer to that as worship. We have a worship leader, and by that we mean the person leading the singing up front at church. Sometimes we want to push back against that language, because it kind of boils down worship just to singing. And you make it clear in the book that worship is certainly a lot more than singing, but it’s also not less than singing. But you do go on to argue that "singing together represents the heart of worship." So, what do you mean by that? Unpack that statement for us.

Ryanne Molinari
When we gather to sing together, one, it’s an act of obedience. So, that’s clearly part of worship. We’re submitting ourselves, our time, our voices. And singing is vulnerable. People can hear our voice. That’s a really intimate part of ourself. So, we’re submitting to this call to gather and to sing. Then, in our singing, we’re elevating the Lord. That’s worship. We’re singing his praises. We’re also encouraging one another, as the body of Christ. That’s a worshipful thing. And then the singing itself is doing something in us. It can cultivate spiritual habits, it can cultivate the fruit of the Spirit—all these different postures that are then God glorifying. And so when we think about what is worship at its core, it’s glorifying God. So, when we sing, we’re doing something that glorifies God. But the singing is doing something in us that prepares us to further glorify God, not just in our worship but in our lives.

Matt Tully
You make this striking observation when it comes to Ephesians 5, this passage that you kind of unpack throughout the book. In Ephesians 5:18–20, you say that Paul presents singing together as the spiritual alternative to sinning together. What do you mean by that?

Ryanne Molinari
In Ephesians 5, Paul’s writing to this church and he’s saying don’t get drunk. That’s debauchery. Don’t be filled with wine. That leads to terrible behavior that’s not God glorifying. Instead, there’s this beautiful parallelism. He says instead of being filled with wine, be filled with the Spirit, because that leads to, instead of debauchery, worshipful singing and living. So, it’s just this really wonderful, simple, parallel structure. If you’re filled with a substance that takes away your judgment and inhibitions, it doesn’t lead to fruitful, God honoring-living. But if you’re filled with the Spirit, here should be the result. You should be living this way, and you should be singing. And then when you’re singing, you are investing in that. You’re filling up with the Spirit again. So there’s this wonderful cyclical nature between if you’re living in the Spirit, you’re worshiping; and when you’re worshiping, it’s reinforcing this life in the Spirit, which then leads to this God honoring-fruitfulness.

Matt Tully
It is striking that Paul does specifically mention singing. Singing songs in worship to God as the results, the fruit of this filling of the Spirit. There could have been so many things that he would say, whether it’s just obedience or faith or lots of good things that we know God does in and through us through the Spirit. But he chooses to contrast debauchery with singing.

Ryanne Molinari
Yeah. Isn’t that great? Because you think about debauchery, it’s sort of this like perverted pleasure in things that are maybe off limits or too much of a good thing or something. Singing’s also great. He doesn’t say, instead of debauchery, go self-flagellate or go sit in a dark room alone. He says, "Hey, instead of debauchery, why don’t you all sing? Why don’t you all make music?" And I think historically, that’s always been a fun thing, or something people like.

Matt Tully
I’m sure we all have experiences of the joy that comes from singing with others. Looking around, you see people really into the moment together. I think that can be a powerful experience.

Ryanne Molinari
And even in, and this is so corny, but this year I’ve just been experimenting with where can singing actually make my life more fruitful or better, even if it sounds ridiculous? Just singing little songs as you do your chores or singing to your spouse. Not in like a romantic way, but just a silly way, like, "Do you want dinner now?" For some reason, it just makes you more affectionate, and it makes you more lighthearted. There’s just something about it.

22:20 - What to Do When We Disagree About the Music

Matt Tully
Yeah. And certainly, all parents will know with kids that there’s something about songs and singing that help us memorize things. Remember things. My wife’s got an amazing memory from music. She can hear a song and literally go back and kind of recall the moment, the situation she was in when she first heard that song. It’s just amazing the way that music can stick with us and influence us in big ways. We’ve spent a lot of time so far talking about music’s power for good in our lives and it’s importance for us as Christians in the church context especially. But you also acknowledge in the book, and I think we’ve all experienced this, that especially within the church, sometimes music can actually be a source of a lot of division and conflict. You actually open the book with a pretty provocative line. You write, "Musical worship, intended to reflect and reinforce the perfect harmony of believers, has become one of the most dissonant parts of church life." So, I wonder if you could just share a little bit of where you have seen that in your own life and experience. It seems like you’re reflecting on maybe something that you’ve experienced yourself.

Ryanne Molinari
I think I describe myself later in the book as a recovering worship grouch. I would very much identify maybe with the older demographics that want more hymns and miss the hymns and don’t understand the music today. That sort of thing. But then I also think I’ve seen so much damage where maybe younger generations won’t sing the hymns and won’t go to a church that does. And what we see there is just this separation in the body of Christ between maybe older people or maybe more just traditional people, and younger people or just contemporary loving people. And there’s this split. And it also just divides history. It feels like we’re cutting off maybe the communion of saints who have written these hymns before us or rejecting the offerings of those who are living today. So I just see so much division and it doesn’t feel like there’s much charity. I think we’re seeing a shift with the rise of contemporary hymns, like the Gettys and CityAlight. I think we’re seeing contemporary music being written in such a way that everyone is enjoying it. And that’s really been healing, I think. So it’s not as antagonistic as before. I think we’ve left the worship wars behind, but there’s still that remaining dissonance where people have such strong opinions on worship—even more, I think, than sermons—that really drives a lot of times where people end up going to church or where they end up serving. I actually work at a church as a traditional worship director, but then I’m a member of the church where my husband’s lead pastor. So I do two churches on Sundays. And at both churches I’ll hear differing things. I’ll hear someone maybe railing against contemporary at the service where I’ve been. They’re usually nice about it, but you get some people. And then you’ll hear people at the church where my husband’s the pastor saying, "Oh, we just miss the hymns. I don’t know if I can do it without the hymns." It’s a recurring theme no matter what type of church you’re at, that people are dissatisfied with the music.

Matt Tully
So, what’s the answer to that? We all have our own backgrounds, we all have our own histories and experiences with different kinds of music, and associations with different kinds of music. How have you sought to maintain a more open-minded posture or a more expansive posture towards maybe, in your case, more contemporary music while not denying the fact that you love the old hymns, you love the classics?

Ryanne Molinari
I have a unique opportunity as a leader at one church and then a participant at the other. Occasionally, I’ll lead at my husband’s church for a funeral or something, where it’s not a Sunday, and I’ll play contemporary music, and I’m fine with that. But I have a unique opportunity where I am mostly playing hymns and traditional pieces at my job. That’s what I was hired to do, so I want to honor that. But I try to participate fully at our church, which is much more contemporary, and show l don’t have any sort of antagonism toward either. I have my preferences, but I also will be honest and say I prefer a lot of contemporary songs to some of the hymns I have to play every week. It’s very nuanced. But I think also just being willing, in your private listening, to explore different genres. Sometimes I’ll pick really weird genres of music and just make myself listen to it for a while to try and steep myself in a different culture or a different tradition and realize this is not necessarily better or worse; it’s just different. This is how some people worship, and I need to be okay with that.

Matt Tully
I think music is probably one of those categories, and I’m sure there are other things in life that are like this, where unless you’re intentional, it can be pretty easy to just default to the things that we’re most comfortable with—to the styles, the genres, the artists that we are very familiar with already—because music can have this calming or almost nostalgic purpose in our lives. We go to certain music because of the way it makes us feel about something that maybe happened in the past. What advice would you give to maybe someone who’s not as musically inclined as you are, who’s not naturally always kind of thinking about music, but who would want to expand their horizons a little bit, especially as it relates to what they’re singing at church?

Ryanne Molinari
First, it’s just so important to really recognize that affectional power of music. Especially if you’re not a musician, recognize the music you like and the music you tend to listen to is forming you or deforming you, whether you’re aware of it or not. But because music is affectional, that’s also why we are so emotionally charged when we talk about it, because it’s working on our emotions all the time when we listen. So of course when someone proposes we sing a different genre, our initial response is going to be emotional. That’s just part of the nature of the art. But I think what I would recommend is just realizing it’s not about you. I know it really is that simple. Music’s doing something in you, and it is supposed to form you in fruitful, God-glorifying ways. But when we gather for church on Sunday, your objective is to address other Christians in song. That’s what you’re there for. Whether you’re a worship leader or a participant, you are not there to have a private concert of your favorite hits. You are there to participate in the music and encourage the person sitting next to you who has a totally different background and a totally different taste profile than you.

Matt Tully
That makes me think about the way that music is also unique compared to something like preaching in a church service or even prayer, where usually there’s one person speaking during those moments. Not always, but in most contexts that would be the case. Whereas music and singing in church is everyone is participating. Even if there’s a leader up front who has a microphone, everyone is still sharing their voice with the rest of everyone else. So speak to the way that our corporate worship is not just about praising God; it’s actually about ministering to other Christians.

Ryanne Molinari
It’s about expressing and reinforcing our identity as a body. If you think about a body singing, it’s one set of vocal chords. It’s one pair of lungs. Singing involves your whole body. Any vocalist will tell you that. Your back has to be straight. Your shoulders have to be comfortable. So it’s like when we gather to sing, we all are aligned in this mission of singing. And Bonhoeffer puts it so beautifully. He says, "It’s not you that sings; it is the church that sings, and you get to share in its song." It’s a privilege to be a part of this, and we all have to be engaged in this. It’s a corporate activity that also draws us closer together. I think I have a really unique perspective on this at my church, and I’m so thankful for this. At the church where I work, I have to clarify, I don’t stand in the front as the worship leader. As an organist, I actually face away from the congregation. I’m in a choir loft, and I’m facing backwards and they’re facing forwards. So they don’t even see me. I can see them. I have little rear view mirrors, but they don’t see me, which I think there’s something really beautiful about that because it’s like they’re leading each other in worship. I’m just providing the musical accompaniment from the back. And so I think there’s something really interesting about not having an actual leader in the front in that. And I don’t think it’s wrong to have a worship leader up front. We need to have worship leaders. Different genres don’t work that way. Contemporary needs to have that person in the front with the microphone. But I do think it’s provided a nice, useful image for me to think about how my whole role is just supporting—providing the musical backdrop and allowing the people of God to sing to one another and lead one another in worship. Everyone has to be a worship leader, in some sense.

31:29 - Pursuing Excellence and Humility as a Worship Leader

Matt Tully
This is a great segue. I wonder if you could speak to those who are called, though, in that more formal way to be worship leaders, in the traditional sense. How do you think about that role and even the role of all the musicians who might be up on a stage leading a congregation? How do you pursue musical excellence but also pair that with humility and helping the congregation focus on God and not on the performers? How do you think about that balance?

Ryanne Molinari
I think the concept of gentleness or meekness has been so interesting there, because contained within that are all these ideas, too, of modesty and moderation and just sort of being understated, prioritizing other people’s gifts over your own even. And that’s so hard to do for leaders. We think about the character of Jesus as being gentle and lowly. Jesus didn’t say he wasn’t in charge of the disciples. He was clearly the leader. He was calling the shots, he was doing everything. He wasn’t just abandoning that responsibility. But there’s such a unique type of leadership there. It’s tender, it’s caring, it’s very, very humble, and it’s all focused on glorifying the Father and building up the people of God. It’s hard to pin down, and it’s hard to say you have to do these different things. What you really have to do is just constantly consider the character of Jesus, and then I think specifically look at what gentleness is, as a fruit of the Spirit and as a character trait of Christ that we’re to emulate. And so pragmatically, what I think that looks like is modesty is huge, and I don’t mean modesty in the sense of keep your shoulders covered. I mean dress in such a way that you aren’t the fanciest person at church, but you’re not the most casual person. Just don’t stand out. You don’t have to be flashy. Let other people lead the song now and then. Occasionally, just play in the background. Occasionally, let somebody else lead the whole set. All of these different things, I think, can just really provide a nice balance and remind us that we are not ultimately who this is about. We’re just a conduit.

Matt Tully
It’s not an uncommon critique to hear from maybe the more conservative types, but not just that group, that sometimes some churches have worship services that feel more like a concert than a worship service. Any practical advice for what churches could do to ensure that the focus is correct?

Ryanne Molinari
Yeah, I would have to look at it on a case by case basis, because I’ll admit my gut reaction is against concert-feel worship. But at the same time, you look at Psalm 150, and it’s pretty bombastic. There’s a lot going on. All living things are called the worship. There are cymbals crashing, people are clapping and dancing. It’s wild. It would be so far out of my comfort zone to lead a worship service like that. But that’s how God chooses to end the Psalms. This is the worship you I want. This is great. So, I don’t ever want to say you can’t have loud, flashy, high-production worship. But I do think it’s worth asking if you need all of those elements. Could you worship in simplicity? Could you worship with the lights on instead of off, so that it’s not just a spotlight on the stage, but people can see each other? That doesn’t compromise your musical quality. That doesn’t compromise really much of anything. It just enables people to feel like, Oh yeah, we’re not here to look at this platform. We’re here to see each other and be in fellowship. So, there are little steps you can do to maybe make your worship feel a little bit more communal and feel a little bit more humble, even if you really are in that camp that feel like we need to have the big band, we need to have the screens and the lighting features and all of these things.

Matt Tully
Are there ways that a more traditional feeling musical performance in a church context can also be, shall we say, immodest in how they do music? What might that look like?

Ryanne Molinari
I think they could be. I don’t know if immodesty would be the temptation there. I think maybe immodesty would be the extreme of maybe a more contemporary style church or a concert-esque church. But I do think arrogance would be the temptation. Again, it comes back to this idea of gentleness. One is not being gentle because they’re being a little too flashy, and the other isn’t being gentle because they’re priding themselves on how modest they are or how reverent they are. And reverence is so important, but it’s a heart posture. It’s not just, Oh, we wore choir robes this week, so we’re doing better. You can pride yourself on that. And that’s where my weakness would be. It would be to be tempted to pride myself on playing the organ and being very in the background and proper. And that’s not good either. That’s an immodesty in the heart that maybe would be more concerning.

36:52 - Lightning Round

Matt Tully
Ryanne, maybe a few lightning round questions here. And these are kind of situational questions. What would you do in these kinds of situations? So, you’re the worship leader in a church. You’ve got multiple people in your congregation giving conflicting feedback about the music. Some say it’s too loud. Some say it’s too old. Some say it’s too new. Some say it’s too emotional. What do you do? How do you navigate that when you’re kind of getting, within the same church, different perspectives?

Ryanne Molinari
That’s hard. It’s tough to feel like you can never please everybody. And the reality is you can’t ever please everybody. But I think a lot of times people just want to be heard. If you can acknowledge what they’re saying and say, "Hey, I hear you. I’m going to do what I can, and I’m going to try my best. I can’t necessarily do it here or here, but I’m going to try to accommodate what you’re asking for here." That often goes a really long way. And I see that, too, with my husband as a pastor. People come to him with similar concerns, and it’s really just about receiving their feedback graciously and really considering it. And sometimes you have to say no. Sometimes you have to say, "This song is serving the congregation. I’m sorry you don’t like it, but it’s biblically sound and it’s helpful. So we’re going to keep it. But I heard your request for this one. We’re going to add this one in a couple weeks." You can try to find those ways to balance it. And ultimately, you won’t please everybody. But if you can just be receptive to what they’re saying and really do give it due thought, that goes a long way.

Matt Tully
What advice would you give to somebody who would say, "I love music. I love worshiping God through music, but I really struggle to focus on the Lord when I’m at church. The music there just feels lackluster. The performances are subpar. The songs are weird, and I’m just genuinely struggling to connect." What advice would you give to somebody like that?

Ryanne Molinari
I have three things, probably in order. The first would be that you just have to jump into the cold pool sometimes. And by that I mean you just have to participate. And not just participate, but participate aggressively and see if maybe you can—

Matt Tully
Aggressive participation.

Ryanne Molinari
Yes, aggressive worship. A good example is I talked in my chapter on love about how there’s this song that this church I was at would sing all the time, and I just did not like it. It wasn’t wrong. There was nothing heretical in it. I just didn’t like it, musically or lyrically. I would find myself just leaving super grouchy every time we’d sing that song. And finally I decided, Okay, I love this church. I love the rest of the worship. I just need to get over this. And so I would sing that song louder than the other songs, even louder than the songs I liked. I’m never going to put this song on repeat on Spotify, but it made a huge difference. I felt engaged. I felt like, You know what? I grew today, I learned something about surrender and love today that I didn’t have before. This worked out. It’s okay. So, the first step is see if maybe you are just not participating because your initial reaction is against the music. Really dive in. Force yourself to get into it, to aggressively worship, and see if that helps. The next step would be if this person who loves music is a musician in any capacity, serve. The best way to feel invested is to be serving. And that’s not just for worship, but that’s for everything. If you don’t feel welcome at a church, join the greeting team. If you don’t feel cared for, join the Stephen Ministry. Join something. If you don’t feel like you like the worship, and you are musically qualified, join the worship team. Don’t try to take it over, but join and see if you can help and use your gifts. And then the third thing I would say is if after you’ve taken these steps and you’ve really committed yourself to this church’s worship, you’ve tried to serve, and you just still are just not feeling like you can connect through the worship at this church, you do have the freedom to find another church. This would always be the last step for me. I would never start with this, but you do have that freedom. If you can find another church where you will be a committed member, you’ll be serving, you’ll be biblically fed, and you’ll be able to enjoy and participate fully in the worship, do it. Find that church and really plug in there.

Matt Tully
Another situation for the music pastor or the worship leader. There’s a volunteer on your team who is passionate and really wants to be involved in the music ministry but just is not that strong musically, whether it’s vocally or in their instrument. How do you kindly shepherd them, encourage them, but maybe tell them that it’s not going to work out?

Ryanne Molinari
That’s tough. And it depends what the role is. If you have a church choir, you can include a less strong singer a lot more easily than if you have a band. Because if you have a band, everyone’s on a microphone. It’s really hard to hide the singer who’s not really helping. If you’re in a choir, you can put that person next to some stronger singers, maybe even talk to the stronger singers, and they can kind of grow into this role because the choir’s sound is all merging together. So, that makes it a little easier. But in general, the two principles I would have that I think are much easier than just a blanket no—and probably more Christ-like than just a blanket no—are not this and not yet. If someone wants to volunteer but they’re tone deaf, you can’t put them as the lead vocalist. You can’t have them as a vocalist. But you don’t want to discourage them from serving in any capacity. Maybe they do love music. Maybe it’s the lyrics that have drawn them to it. So you have to work with that person to find where they can serve in a way that’s fulfilling for them as an individual but also helpful for the church body. Because ultimately, your decision has to be what will serve the body, not what will make this member feel happy in the moment. But you do want to care for that member and find where they can use their gifts and be plugged in in a fruitful way. The other principle would be not yet, which I’ve had to use with students who are so excited that they can play the piano or the organ and are like, "Put me in! I’m ready!" It’s like, "Not quite, because you don’t have a steady tempo yet. The congregation won’t be able to sing along with what you’re playing. But I see your passion. We’re going to work together on this so that maybe in like two years you can help with this." So, you commit to finding the right place or waiting until the right time, coaching them until that time.

43:37 - Interesting Facts About the Organ

Matt Tully
You play both the piano and the organ. I recently watched a little documentary on YouTube about organs, and it was just fascinating. They’re so much more complicated than I think I ever really imagined. What are a few interesting, maybe surprising things about organs that you would say most people probably don’t know?

Ryanne Molinari
They’re called the king of instruments, which is—

Matt Tully
For good reason.

Ryanne Molinari
Yeah

Matt Tully
I didn’t realize they can like mimic a ton of instruments. Certain organs, I think they’re all different, but they can mimic all kinds of other instruments.

Ryanne Molinari
And that’s actually why they’re so integral to church music, or were historically, is because it was much more financially viable to hire an organist than an orchestra. You could have one person making all the same sounds, more or less, as an orchestra on Sunday versus having to hire the thirty plus people you’d maybe want for an orchestra. It’s such a great instrument because it has all of these different flavors. And I know when I say organ you hear "Toccata and Fugue." Everyone has this idea of haunted mansion type music. But the organ has these delicate flute sounds and string sounds, and it can be super, super soft and intimate too. There’s this whole range that you can get from one instrument. It’s incredible. Fun fact: The different sounds on the organ come from pulling out what are called stops. So if I want to sound like a flute, I pull out my flute stop, and I can play the keyboard just like a piano, but it’ll sound like a flute.

Matt Tully
What’s actually happening in the background to make that happen?

Ryanne Molinari
They’re called stops because the organ has pipes, and the pipes, when the air blows through them, make the sound. Well, the stop was this little sliver of maybe wood or rubber, I don’t know, but it stops the air in the pipe. So when the stop is in, the pipe’s not sounding. When you pull the stop out, the air goes through the pipe and you get the sound. So, that’s actually where we get the phrase "pulling out all the stops." You pull all of the stops on the organ at once and you get the biggest sound possible, which is very fun.

Matt Tully
You’re essentially activating all of the pipes.

Ryanne Molinari
Yes. Exactly. So, to pull out all the stops, that’s where that phrase comes from.

Matt Tully
Any other fun facts or misconceptions about organs that people have?

Ryanne Molinari
They’re just fun. It’s a bit like trying to pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time, because you’re playing one to maybe three keyboards. Some organs have six or more keyboards. Fortunately, the one I play only has two keyboards for my hands. They’re called manuals. So, both hands are doing different things. And then there’s a keyboard for your feet. You actually have to wear special shoes so you can play the different keys or pedals using your toes and your heels, which is kind of neat.

Matt Tully
This question probably applies for those of us who don’t even play the piano. You see a pianist playing, and you’ve not done that before, it’s hard to understand how you can do so much with your hands all at once. But I think if you take that next step up to the organist, who’s playing two or more sets of keys, and then on top of that, playing keys with their feet, how do you do all of that? Are you thinking about where each foot is going as it’s going? Or does it all just kind of become second nature as you practice?

Ryanne Molinari
That’s part of why I was reluctant to focus on organ at first, because I was so comfortable with the piano. I can play the piano like typing on a keyboard. You just know where the keys are. You don’t have to look, necessarily. With an organ, you have to then add your feet to that mix, which was really a challenge at first. Now it feels so much more natural. You get that sort of muscle memory and that kinetic sense of where the different keys are, so that becomes more comfortable. But I’d be so interested in this. I know there have been studies done on the brains of pianists. Because they have to use their left hand and right hand simultaneously and differently, there’s a really wonderful phenomenon where their brains are very balanced. The different hemispheres of their brain operate almost equally. So, I think a lot of pianists are very much equal parts analytical and creative. There’s a left-brain right-brain symmetry. It’s so interesting. So, I’d be interested to see what happens to organists, because I imagine it would be that on steroids. I know organists seem to have longevity. I don’t have any studies to back this up, but a lot of my peers are in their eighties and up and still playing the organ. Which I wonder if part of it is because it’s such a physical instrument. My watch tells me I hit my step goal every time I practice.

Matt Tully
Ryanne, thank you so much for helping us all to think perhaps a little bit more biblically, a little bit more carefully about music and its importance for our lives, both as humans but especially as Christians in churches. We appreciate it.

Ryanne Molinari
Yeah. Thank you so much.

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